Author Topic: Universal system?  (Read 2914 times)

Ben Harvey

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Universal system?
« on: August 26, 2007, 11:47:11 AM »
This ideas been floating around for a while, universal rules that can be used wiht almost any paper figure one site

Now alot of us have seen the DBA system and its realitives, i think starting froma  similer point of creat a set of base "types" of soldiers wich are broad enouhg to span severel time periods and incude all aspects of diffrent armys

Now I know this would be a big tasks, but imagin if we had not only a paper soldier standard, but a rule standard as well!

I would help like to write somthing along these lines, of course it wouldnt be "our rules" unless we all have a part in desinging and shaping it

would anyone like to help? anyone have any suggestions, comments?

dirk

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Universal system?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2007, 12:31:22 PM »
Cool idea.
I like universal wargaming system.

However, I am not quite sure if I can be of any help in actually designing some.

Regards
Dirk

Ben Harvey

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Universal system?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2007, 12:42:40 PM »
well heres a start, help me come up with a list of unit types
(not just a copy of DBA lists, I think we can change some things around and invent some stuff, orignailty people!)

dirk

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Universal system?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2007, 01:30:44 PM »
> well heres a start, help me come up with a list of unit types

Why not start with a couple of attributes (i.e. attack/defense values) and a couple of categories (infantry, cavalry, artillery, war machines, flyer).
The actual units would be combinations of these two stats.
The categories could work like a stone-scissor-paper system (i.e. cavalry is effective against infantry).
If this doesn't suffice you could start discriminating (heavy infantry for infantry, fighter and bombers for flyers etc)

You could also start comparing with other generic wargaming systems like the Warmaster family.

Regards
Dirk

Ben Harvey

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Universal system?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2007, 01:38:16 PM »
the things is I want keep away from having pages of charts..

sure there can be basic stats for the unit tpyes but there shoud'nt be more then ten types..

for instance

Hv infantry get X3 vs skirmishers
Lt  spears get X2 vs Hv cavarly

that sort of system could be memorized and allow for alot of stratagy by making it have "set units" .. so egyptain axmen are  Hv infantry and a medival dismounted knight woud be Hv infantry as well..

untits are rated aganst fair contenders of the time, and egyptain axmen might be considers light wait and inferior to a dismount knight, but he does couse an heavy infantry on the battle frields of egypt whare the majorty of infatry have no armour and weak weapons..


that way,thigns are alot simpler..

juniorgeneral

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Universal system?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2007, 02:21:07 PM »
Once upon a time some of my students were into Warhammer and wanted to have a Warhammer battle with their overpriced figures after school.  So we had a bring and battle including all kinds of misfit miniatures.  We didn't use the Warhammer rules, though.  We used these which are super basic.

Sequence of play is move, shoot, opponent move, opponent shoot, both sides charge

All units will be classified as one of the following:
Shooters:  Any unit with ranged weapons like arrows, guns, crossbows
Warriors:  All units that fight on foot with melee weapons
Riders:  Any unit mounted on horses, boars, etc.
Leaders:  Special individual leader figures, on foot or mounted
Artillery:  cannons, bolt shooters, etc.
Small Monsters: Trolls, chariots, small war machines, etc.
Large Monsters: Giants, Dragons, large war machines, etc.

Unit Size: Shooters, warriors, and riders have 6 figures per unit.  Artillery should have 4 crew.  All other units have a single figure/model.

Elite units: Some warrior and rider units may be designated as elite. The melee number for elite units is one better than for regular units.  Regular units must outnumber elite units by at least 2 1.

Melee
Shooters   6
Warriors   5-6
Riders      4-6
Leaders   4-6
Sm Monsters: roll 3 dice, hit on 4-6, takes 4 hits to kill them
Lg Monsters: roll 3 dice, hit on 4-6, takes 8 hits to kill them
Artillery   6 (crewmen get to fight, lose 1 die when firing for each crewmen lost)

Shooting
Shooters 0-12 hit on a 6
Artillery 0-24 roll 3 dice, hit on 4-6

Movement:  Riders move and charge 12, everyone else moves and charges 6.
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Ben Harvey

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Universal system?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2007, 04:14:36 PM »
Those are good rules Jg!
sound system u have worked out, however if we were doing historical we would have to change things around a little..

heres the unit types I figured out would work for anceint, medival and renesaunce..

Shooters: groups of soldiers profficant with ranged weaposn like bows

Skirmishers: groups of lightly armourd soldiers with weaker ranged      weapons, quick and loose formation

Poles: soldiers equiped with polearms, either with or without sheilds, troops are exeptonal vs cavarly but suffer greatly if flanked

Blades: soldier equiped with swords, axes or other close combat weapons, exeptonal vs other infantry

Knights: Armoured cavalry that are devistating when charging

Scouts: lightly armour cavalry that are faster then knights but less lethal

Caverly shooters: lightly armoured cavarly that can harras enemy troops with ranged weapons

Chariots: chariots that can cut down enemy lines and launch volleys of arrows

Artillery: big stuff that fires, cannons, catapults etc..

Irregular:Iregugler groups of soldiers that are fight with what ever they have, un organized but none the less powerful in melee            

Comments? sudjestion? additions? ..

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Universal system?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2007, 06:11:56 PM »
Ben, I think you sort of overcomplicated Matt's system.  For me, the beauty of Matt's D6 system is that it's simple, easy to digest, and can be modified with ease.  

I think that Matt's system needs a Flying Monsters section though, for things like Dragons (While airborne), planes, space stations, and flying cavalry.  Obviously, besides airplanes, this category won't be used much in historical sims, but in fantasy, a lot of stuff flies.  Too much, actually.  Duck!

Ben Harvey

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Universal system?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2007, 06:39:31 PM »
MC, matts ruels work fine as long as ur using fantasy figs, but if u want to duplicate real tatics to some level u need more then 2 types of infantrys :wink:


look, "warriors" is great but offors us no startegy or look on how it fights..

an army is infact more tehn just infatry and cavarly..

to duplicated realy battles, or just have a semi accurate slog fest, u need some more unit clases..


and MC I neve said how the mechanics work out, I only saind there are a few types.. Belive me these ruels are "light" compared to most stuff out there

dirk

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Universal system?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2007, 12:58:03 AM »
Some comments:

@Ben if you replace Poles with Spears, Shooters with Bows, Scouths with Light Horse, Irregular with Warband, this looks rather DBA like to me. However, I have never read the actual rules, which still may differ.

As for the flying monsters (and things like magicians), yes, this is only needed for fantasy.
But I think a kind of "monster" would also be needed for Ancient warfare, i.e. you need to account for stuff like war elephants (and war wagons for that matter)

A mix of JG's basic rules and Ben's categories sounds fun.

Regards
Dirk

Luftwaffe Flak Vierling

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Universal system?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2007, 06:11:35 AM »
These are great! Anyone have a points system for infantry guys? I got a good place for production of tanks and stuff in my other thread but nothing for infantry? TIA and all the best, Jon

Ben Harvey

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Universal system?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2007, 08:09:36 AM »
:oops:  ya, it does look a little like dba deosnt it..

well the ruels will be diffrent, and I should add a monster class

>jon

A point system is key to this system to allow any army to fight any other army in any size, so it will be important

I dont have one at the moment however Im working one one, if anyone got any other point systems Im curiours to see how they work

Luftwaffe Flak Vierling

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Universal system?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2007, 09:19:51 AM »
Great thanks Ben you da man on this kind of thing! :D All the best, Jon

dirk

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Universal system?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2007, 11:08:30 AM »
> I dont have one at the moment however Im working one one, if anyone
> got any other point systems Im curiours to see how they work

I would only have the Warmaster system handy, but I don't really want to go into details (just to see what you can come up with ;)

Basically it has two systems, a rarity based system and a cost based system.
Rarity works on the concept how common (or rare) a given unit type is. This may have upper bounds (say, you can only have a maximum of one general per given army becuase you can only have one commander, or you can only one unit of $monster because they are difficult to breed/train)
You can also have lower boundaries (you may have at least 2 units of infantry because these are the mainstay of your army)

Cost works on the concept of "you get what you pay for". Basically you have a "stock" unit of say infantry, with base values and a base price.
You have "special" units, e.g. units which are stronger, but are more expensive.
Alternatively you could do with weaker, but cheaper units.

The latter would  allow for strategies like the famous Undead horde (many cheap, but weak Zombies), which simply overwhelm their enemies by their sheer mass.

The cost based system works on both stats (say, attack+1) and attributes (say, you have a "hiding" or "flying" unit)

Such point system allows for "asymmetric" armies (contrary to symmetric armiies where all armies use the same troop types). A con to this system is that it is much more difficult to get the balance right.

Regards
Dirk